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jhanananda
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![[*]](./images/onepoint9/default_icon.gif) posted on 3-9-2008 at 04:53 PM |
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General blending recommendations
Hello blenders, let us discuss our experiences with blending and our recommendations. My experience and research has lead me to make the following
recommendations.
There are a number of variables that confront those who wish a mixed fuels solution, such as engine type, driving conditions and regional weather.
So, there is most probably no single fuel mix that will meet all needs. However, we have found that by simply approximating the viscosity of #2
Diesel at 75F (25c) we can run a blend of WVO on nearly every diesel engine. We actually find that we can run oil significantly more viscous than #2
Diesel, when the weather is warmer.
My mixing recommendations are below (please see the chart below). But, if one is using WVO, then the issue of animal fat in the WVO can be
significant. It is therefore wise to extract a jar of one’s current mix and leave it outside in the shade and observe it. If you see a cloudy
substance precipitating out below 75F (25c), then this is most probably animal fat, but it could be hydrogenated oil. In either case, petroleum
distillates are not generally good at dissolving these oils/fats; however, acetone and turpentine are excellent for this. In this case we find that
by adding as little as 1% acetone or turpentine to one’s blend will often dissolve the fat/oil in addition to the RUG or Kerosene, which is the
dominant thinner. So, learn to find the mix that works best for you, then tell us about it.
The premise of the blender is to approximate the viscosity of D-2 diesel fuel (1.3 to 5.8 centistokes (1.3 to 5.8 mm per second) at 40°C [104°F]) by
blending thinning agents, such as #2-diesel, kerosene or gasoline, with thicker fuel bases, such as WVO and WMO. One must realize that one can never
approach a target viscosity, such as #2-Diesel by using that substance as a thinner for a thicker substance such as WVO or WMO, thus we recommend
using kerosene or gasoline, but we included #2-diesel on the chart for warmer ambient temperatures, where a thicker fuel has less detrimental
influence upon the performance of an automobile. the viscosity is a function of temperature, thus one of the reasons why more thinner is needed in
the colder months.
While blending VO-based fuels with kerosene is chemically acceptable, and legal in many nations
PLEASE NOTE KEROSENE USE IN VEHICLES IN THE UK IS ILLEGAL
If you wish to be cautious in your experiments, then conduct your experiments during the warmer weather, because viscosity is a function of
temperature and vegetable oil is considerably thicker than #2 diesel. Also, try adding your mix to a ½ tank of #2 diesel and see what happens. This
should be a fairly conservative test. If your engine runs fine, then try your mix again with only ¼ of a tank of diesel, and so forth until you get
to running with whatever mix you feel runs best on your engine with no diesel added.
If in your experiments you find your engine starts poorly in the morning, then add more RUG or Kerosene up to 40/50% (see chart above) and reduce the
#2 diesel. Some people have luck thinning with unleaded gasoline instead of kerosene, because for them it is cheaper and more readily available than
kerosene.
Special note for two-tank systems:
If you have a heated fuel line, then, either use kerosene or turpentine as your solvent, or turn off the heat on your fuel line, because any mix
containing more than 5% gasoline or acetone can cause vapor-lock in the fuel line. Also, if you have a two-tank system, then consider just using a
fuel mix (such as recommended above) for startup and adding only 5-10% kerosene or turpentine to your main WVO tank to improve the burn.
I have been running various mixes of WVO and unleaded gasoline (RUG/Petrol) since Feb, 2007 on a 1983 Chevy 6.2L diesel with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2
IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on a 70/30 (WVO/RUG) mix down to 38F. I have found that by blending as little as 5% RUG in the
summer, and as much as 30% in the winter, the engine starts and runs as if it was running on diesel fuel.
Mixed fuels sources:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/1
General year round mixing recommendations
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/47
Mixed fuels-concerns:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/4
Mixed fuels Testimonials
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/48
Improved WVO Fuel Economy with RUG and Alcohol blends
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/64
Owners manuals that recommend Mixed Fuels
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/63
Mixed fuels-Acetone
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/61
[Edited on 3-9-2008 by jhanananda]
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by jhanananda]
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by jhanananda]
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by jhanananda]
[Edited on 27-10-2008 by jhanananda]
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jhanananda
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| posted on 5-9-2008 at 04:59 PM |
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Basic Blending
Hello blenders. Getting vegetable oil to burn at all without damaging one’s engine is the primary focus of the various bio-fuels forums. The
Biodiesel process is one way to do it. The two-tank heated fuel line is another way to do it. Blenders do it through adjusting their fuel mix with
solvents throughout the year to accommodate the night time low.
I believe the goal of all three methods of burning WVO is to reduce the viscosity of vegetable oil (WVO/SVO) to that of #2 diesel, which is 1.9-4.1
centistokes at about 100°F (40°C); whereas straight vegetable oil (SVO) tends to be about 30-50 centistokes at 100°F (40°C), which is about 12-15
times as viscous. To bring down vegetable oil to the viscosity of #2 diesel, the biodiesel process strips away extra carbon atoms in the more complex
vegetable oil molecules, which reduces the viscosity of the resulting biodiesel down to 4.43-6.7 centistokes at 40°C (Rapeseed Methyl-Ester), which is
roughly only two times the target viscous, but it works, so we know that a diesel engine will run reasonably well with fuel that is twice the design
viscosity, at least at relatively warm ambient temperatures. On the other hand the two-tank heated fuel line needs to be heated up to about 100°C
(212°F) to make the viscosity of vegetable oil equal to that of #2 diesel, but then these people find their method works at 60°C, which further
supports our findings that diesel engines will run adequately on fuels with a broader range of viscosities.
Since there is no research in support of blending, we amateur bio-fuels blenders have been collecting some preliminary viscosity data for SVO-based
fuel blends and have found that it takes about 25% to 30% regular unleaded gasoline (petrol) to bring SVO down to the viscosity of #2 diesel. On the
other hand, just like with biodiesel and heated vegetable oil running fine in a diesel engine, even though they are twice as viscous as #2 diesel, we
blenders find that during the warmer months our diesel engines seem to run fine on as little as 5%-10% RUG, which results in the viscosity of the
blended fuel being about 4 times more viscous than #2 diesel. We find we can get away with this much viscosity during the warm months of summer, but
not so as the weather cools.
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David306
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| posted on 10-9-2008 at 08:39 PM |
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I have tried a 5% RUG 95% WVO, 0,1% Acetone blend on my 306 with advanced timing but it gave me power loss and rough idle when the engine was cold.
Runs perfect on 100% WVO.
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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gboy
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| posted on 10-9-2008 at 09:53 PM |
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I've always worked on the assumption that 10% rug halves the viscosity. I've never been bold enough to try 100% wvo. Kero is ilegal in the uk btw.
gboy uses a 190d and a 106d unmoddified on blends even though he\'s already bust one bosch pump.... oh and like most other humans he talks total sh*te
most of the time
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oilychariot
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| posted on 10-9-2008 at 10:04 PM |
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Kerosene is illegal for on road use in the UK, as we all know. What's to stop someone from warming an engine up on a 50/50 kero/vo mix from a small
secondary 'tank' (removable), where the return line is T-d back to this 'tank'. On their private property, of course.
W124 6 cyl estates FPHE modified tank strainer 90-100% wv
Golf IDI 1.9 looped with FPHE and 5" filter housing, 5u element 80-100% wv
WV filtered pillowcase-5-1-1-0.5-0.5micron
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gboy
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| posted on 10-9-2008 at 11:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oilychariot
Kerosene is illegal for on road use in the UK, as we all know. What's to stop someone from warming an engine up on a 50/50 kero/vo mix from a small
secondary 'tank' (removable), where the return line is T-d back to this 'tank'. On their private property, of course. |
Because there's a small theoretical possibility that this could cause a mini black hole to form and the vehicle, secondary tank and private property
could all be sucked in. For this reason, I'm out.
gboy uses a 190d and a 106d unmoddified on blends even though he\'s already bust one bosch pump.... oh and like most other humans he talks total sh*te
most of the time
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David306
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| posted on 12-9-2008 at 03:31 PM |
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| Quote: | skrevet av gboy
I've always worked on the assumption that 10% rug halves the viscosity. I've never been bold enough to try 100% wvo. Kero is ilegal in the uk btw.
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Do you say that my Bosch pump will be safer on a 10% blend??
Does temperature make any difference? What if i start my engine on 100%WVO on a really cold day (2'C) Will it break my pump?
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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SimonL
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| posted on 12-9-2008 at 03:48 PM |
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| Quote: |
Does temperature make any difference? What if i start my engine on 100%WVO on a really cold day (2'C) Will it break my pump? |
You won't break the Bosch pump - but it might not start/run at all if the oil is too thick to run from the tank. I run my Pug on 100% WVO in summer
time with no problems. It'll be time to drop some RUG in soon, though.
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BioTim
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Mood: 30MPG. But on bio it's not a big deal.
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| posted on 12-9-2008 at 04:12 PM |
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I don't try and reduce the viscosity of my oil to diesel. I know that this is not a realistic goal. I try to reduce the viscosity to a point where it
will run happily in my car.
A blend of oil and diesel will be thicker than diesel but thinner than oil, there will be a point between these viscosities where your car runs fine
but you have some oil in your car saving on fuel bills without causing damage that you have to find.
If that's 1% or 99% depends on the car, modification (electric/coolant heater), the weather and how adventurous you are.
| Quote: |
but it might not start/run at all
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Your performance could be limited even if the oil can flow through the pipes if the flow rate is too slow and you can harm other components (like
injectors). I wouldn't go so far as to say the bosch pump is unbreakable, just very much more hardy.
Generally from my experience and reports of pumps breaking they tend to do so when you accelerate on cold oil on a cold day. If you drive an unmodded
car on a cold day on 100% WVO go VERY VERY easy on it I would strongly advise against this. Change one of the variables if you can't change the
weather change the percentage or modify the car.
Currently Running:
Jeep Cherokee (1)- Biodiesel
Jeep Cherokee (2)-WVO/Biodiesel
Citroen Xantia HDi - BioDiesel
Citroen ZX - WVO / Biodiesel
Recently Retired:
Vauxhall Frontera - Biodiesel (Written off at a roundabout)
Many others already tested
http://www.cleanercombustion.co.uk |
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e3msb
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| posted on 12-9-2008 at 04:16 PM |
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dont use kero in any amounts or for any lengh of time....it is illegal, and it lingers. acetone or any other solvent must not be used in large
amounts, and its still up for debate whether they even qualify under the small percentage allowed to help biofuel use...tho generally it says the fuel
should be mostly veg oil or methyl esters, but without stating what the remainder can be......dodgy ground really, tho many of us use the tiny amount
of acetone, and I was dipped with the acetone and forgot to tell them but was said to be OK.
e3msb[steve] 96 disco 300. bio 100. Cit ZX. wvo/mix. PUG405 wvo/mix. Vintage JCB3c GT. bio. home/cent heating,wvo/glyc-oil. Linde forklift 3cyl
Deutz WVO. Petter twin diesel 7kva generator, bio and wvo. Dennis fire engine 1971. 5.8 perkins T6354 historic vehicle, bio. IF YOU HAVE GAINED
KNOWLEDGE OR BEEN AMUSED BY THE ANSWERS GIVEN PLEASE MAKE A SMALL DONATION TO THE FORUM
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jhanananda
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| posted on 18-9-2008 at 10:27 PM |
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cold weather blending
Hello David306, while I am sure there is a finite limit as to what temperature one can safely run a WVO-based blend, nonetheless, 12°C (53°F) should
be perfectly fine as long as you have the correct blend, which I would recommend to be 20 to 30% RUG. In fact I have successfully started up a cold
engine at 3°C (38°F) with 30% RUG to 70%WVO without the block heater. I have also experimented with blends for several years and have found that such
a blend should remain liquid down to -19 to -34°C (-20 to -30°F).
General year round mixing recommendations
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/47
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8758
It is very possible the reason why David306 has found a loss of power and economy while using only 5% RUG blended with his WVO is because he is not
using enough RUG. So, do experiment, because the owner’s manuals for some diesel auto manufacturers state it is OK to blend up to 30% gasoline with
diesel fuel, so surely that much RUG should be safe to blend with WVO.
Owners manuals that recommend Mixed Fuels
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/63
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9751014871/m/7391063652
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/15704
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8764&page=1#...
[Edited on 22-9-2008 by jhanananda]
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David306
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| posted on 18-9-2008 at 11:00 PM |
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| Quote: | skrevet av jhanananda
It is very possible the reason why David306 has found a loss of power and economy at using only 5% RUG blended with his WVO is because he is not using
enough RUG. |
I will experiment a bit more.
But I think the reason is my advanced timing. I guess RUG advance the timing so much that the engine runs poorly. But when engine is hot it runs
smooth.
Have tried to blend with E85, and just as the boys here said, it won't mix. I'll post pictures. Have tried different solvents to make it mix together,
but after a few minutes the ethanol is on top.
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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jhanananda
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| posted on 18-9-2008 at 11:25 PM |
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alcohol blending
Hello David, it is interesting that you are having trouble blending e85 with your WVO, because I had no trouble with the blend at all. However, I
have heard other people report this, so I suspect those who have trouble blending alcohol with their WVO may very well have animal fat in their WVO.
Do you know if you have any, and if so how much? You could try adding acetone, or turpentine first, which could theoretically thin the animal fat and
help it blend with alcohol and other solvents, like RUG.
Mixed fuels-Acetone
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/message/61
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=447609751&f=9751014871...
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/message/10779
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8772
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hifly
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| posted on 19-9-2008 at 12:14 AM |
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ethanol & methanol will not mix with veg oil svo or wvo, if it did we would not be able to do the 27/3 test we do when testing biodiesel.
This test relies on the fact that methanol will mix with bio and not veg thats why you get fall out from a poor reaction you would get the same
results from ethanol.
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fenlander
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| posted on 21-9-2008 at 09:35 AM |
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Can anyone tell me what is the best blend to use in England if I mix SVO with diesel?
I run two vehicles, a rover 420 td and an isuzu citation 3.1 td, both have bosch or bosch like fuel pumps.
Thank you
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jhanananda
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| posted on 22-9-2008 at 06:54 PM |
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Hello fenlander, how much solvent to blend, and when, is dependent upon the solvent, the vehicle and the night-time low. So, it is difficult to make
generalizations. However, after dialoging with people all over the world who have been blending waste oils with solvents, I have made some general
guidelines that should be helpful to start with. Please see the chart below.
N/R= not recommended
(These values are experimental and theoretical, so please use caution)
PLEASE NOTE KEROSENE USE IN VEHICLES IN THE UK IS ILLEGAL
[Edited on 22-9-2008 by lew247]
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lew247
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| posted on 22-9-2008 at 07:17 PM |
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HOW many times?
Please DONT recomend Kerosene, as you have been told in the past
also over here there is no such thing as #2 diesel
there is either diesel, or diesel.
I've edited your picture
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jhanananda
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| posted on 22-9-2008 at 07:55 PM |
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Hello lew247, and thanks for hacking apart my chart and just being an overbearing pain in the *ss from time to time. While I have not forgotten that
kerosene is illegal in the UK, perhaps you have forgotten that this is an international forum, and thus there are people who participate in this forum
who do not have the kind of overbearing and short-sited government that the UK has.
If the UK were a bit more far thinking, they would readily see that promoting bio-fuels in anyway can only help the economy by reducing the
importation of foreign fuels, and thus the tiny bit of revenues lost in allowing people to experiment with blending kerosene and other solvents with
vegetable oil would far out way the increasing national debt due to the importation of petroleum products.
Nonetheless, could you please just NOT ever assume that I am promoting illegal activities. However, if you constantly require me to post a disclaimer
to every one of my messages here, I would be glad to take my dialog elsewhere.
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David306
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| posted on 22-9-2008 at 10:24 PM |
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| Quote: | skrevet av jhanananda
Hello lew247, and thanks for hacking apart my chart and just being an overbearing pain in the *ss from time to time. While I have not forgotten that
kerosene is illegal in the UK, perhaps you have forgotten that this is an international forum, and thus there are people who participate in this forum
who do not have the kind of overbearing and short-sited government that the UK has.
If the UK were a bit more far thinking, they would readily see that promoting bio-fuels in anyway can only help the economy by reducing the
importation of foreign fuels, and thus the tiny bit of revenues lost in allowing people to experiment with blending kerosene and other solvents with
vegetable oil would far out way the increasing national debt due to the importation of petroleum products.
Nonetheless, could you please just NOT ever assume that I am promoting illegal activities. However, if you constantly require me to post a disclaimer
to every one of my messages here, I would be glad to take my dialog elsewhere. |
Just stick to forum rules, and UK law, I like this forum, and I also like your blending knowledge.
Please help people to do what is legal.
Most people is from UK, so we should not promote anything illegal here. According to this thread they have enough problems with SVO/WVO in the UK:
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9077
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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David306
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| posted on 22-9-2008 at 10:35 PM |
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| Quote: | skrevet av David306
Have tried to blend with E85, and just as the boys here said, it won't mix. I'll post pictures. Have tried different solvents to make it mix together,
but after a few minutes the ethanol is on top. |
First i shaked the E85 and WVO:
Then after a few minutes it looked like this:
And my WVO is reallo low on animal fats - only used for potato chips!
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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jhanananda
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| posted on 23-9-2008 at 04:29 AM |
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Hello David306, thanks for conducting your experiment. I did the same thing with e85 and it mixed just fine with my WVO, so there is something
different between your WVO and mine, or e85 there, verses Tucson, AZ, USA. So, do you have a bottle of your WVO mixed with gasoline? My guess is, if
you mix the two, they will not separate.
PS:
Did you happen to notice what the temperature was of the oil at the time of your experiment?
PSS:
If I get booted off this forum, because the moderators are too threatened by a mixed fuels dialog, you know where to find me.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggie_fuel_blennders/
[Edited on 22-9-2008 by jhanananda]
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hifly
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| posted on 23-9-2008 at 06:26 AM |
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Lew247, I for one support your action, jhanananda has been given a whole section for his thoughts, on may i say the foremost bio/svo/wvo site on the
net. It just happens to be a uk based site and 99% of its users are in the uk. So i don't think it to much to ask that advice should be given based on
uk law first and a note saying that kero may be used in other places but not the uk.
There is already a blending forum started by janananda on yahoo, it seems a bit of a waste of bandwidth to have 2 forums with the same info posted by
the same person in my opinion.
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David306
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| posted on 25-9-2008 at 02:26 PM |
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| Quote: | skrevet av jhanananda
Hello David306, thanks for conducting your experiment. ....
So, do you have a bottle of your WVO mixed with gasoline? My guess is, if you mix the two, they will not separate.
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Very interesting.
It actually blends when i put RUG into the mixture.
Strange!
I thought E85 was 85% ethanol and 15% RUG.
Have to call Statoil to ask them how they make E85
Edited: BAD NEWS! Look two posts down
[Redigert den 25-9-2008 av David306]
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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lew247
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| posted on 25-9-2008 at 02:39 PM |
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thats what I thought it was too
hence the 85= 85% same as B30 =30% biodiesel and B100 = 100% biodiesel
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David306
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| posted on 25-9-2008 at 04:10 PM |
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BAD NEWS! After 1h in the freezer the E85 came on top. I guess that is E100, as the gasoline will blend with the WVO...
BioEthanol will not blend with RUG!
Pug 306 dt 95 adv. IP, 50,000 km on 100% WVO, or various blends depending on temperature
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