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Loretta
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![[*]](./images/onepoint9/default_icon.gif) posted on 20-7-2008 at 08:35 PM |
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methanol vapours explode
connect to an earlier thread "the fog - mysterious vapours". This is my GL processor - nothing too spectacular but nonetheless am quite proud. Note
the blanket on top of the hot water tank, it will be relevant in a moment
Followed normal steps in making this latest batch, pumped in 90ltrs of oil, de-watered at 90C, turned off pump and heating element then waited 3 hours
before decanting 10 ltrs. Ordinarily I would then have waited until it cooled to 40C before titration then carried out process however on this
occasion had to wait 72 hours.
Turned on pump (remember no other chemicals involved at this stage) and watched steady stream of (what I now know to be) water vapour come from the
bottom of the condensing tube.
Then turned on heating element, heated to 40C, carried out titration (4g+7.8gKOH as it is 90% - nothing strange in qty). Turned off heating element
when thermometer reached approx 55C, mixed up 940 g KOH with 17.6 ltrs of methanol, slowly added to processor, pumped for 90 min, added 4 ltrs of
water for prewash. Turned off pump 15 min later, let settle overnight.
This morning I decanted the glycerin, I reckon about 75 ish ltrs was left in the processing tank, maybe a bit more. Turned on the condensing pump then
main pump then the heating element (temp of oil was about 40C) in order to de-meth. Noted a small amount of same water vapour coming from the
condensing tube yesterday and then WHAMPHH about 60/90 seconds later.
Remember the blanket from the first photo, the expansion of the hot water tank was so rapid it caused the blanket to launch itself into the ceiling
causing the indentation in the roof above. The escaping gas also blasted the water in the condensing bucket all over the garage with a further couple
of pints f oil that was blown out of the venturi.
Once things settled down I transfered the remainder to the wash tank on the right hand side.
On an upbeat note all the soldered joints held which is more than can be said for my underpants.
Conclusion - heating element was proud of the level of oil, sufficiently hot to ignite the vapours - according to safety data sheet "the explosion
limits for methanol are unusually wide".
I count myself very very lucky.
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e3msb
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 08:43 PM |
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this is the point that we try to make every day......so thanks for that. If any one an example of what happens to the heater, then plug it in without
it being in liquid, and it glows red just before it actually melts the metal and dies. Nothing could be a better source of ignition than that.
e3msb[steve] 96 disco 300. bio 100. Cit ZX. wvo/mix. PUG405 wvo/mix. Vintage JCB3c GT. bio. home/cent heating,wvo/glyc-oil. Linde forklift 3cyl
Deutz WVO. Petter twin diesel 7kva generator, bio and wvo. Dennis fire engine 1971. 5.8 perkins T6354 historic vehicle, bio. IF YOU HAVE GAINED
KNOWLEDGE OR BEEN AMUSED BY THE ANSWERS GIVEN PLEASE MAKE A SMALL DONATION TO THE FORUM
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plumber
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 08:48 PM |
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have you got a 27inch immersion in use if so swop it for an 11inch it would be immersed in the oil then
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julesandtash
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 08:54 PM |
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Thats a fairly dramatic way to put a dome in the bottom of a hot water cylinder - wonder it it would work on a barrel 
Glad you're all OK other than your pants. At least it didn't blow anything apart or hurt anyone.
1994 Discovery 300Tdi and1999 Skoda Octavia 1.9Tdi, Both on home made B100.
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e3msb
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 08:57 PM |
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I do know of at least two people who have done this, and luckily survived, all good reason for jamerls inline
heater....http://www.bio-tec.co.uk/cone2.htm
[Edited on 20/7/2008 by e3msb]
e3msb[steve] 96 disco 300. bio 100. Cit ZX. wvo/mix. PUG405 wvo/mix. Vintage JCB3c GT. bio. home/cent heating,wvo/glyc-oil. Linde forklift 3cyl
Deutz WVO. Petter twin diesel 7kva generator, bio and wvo. Dennis fire engine 1971. 5.8 perkins T6354 historic vehicle, bio. IF YOU HAVE GAINED
KNOWLEDGE OR BEEN AMUSED BY THE ANSWERS GIVEN PLEASE MAKE A SMALL DONATION TO THE FORUM
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plumber
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 08:59 PM |
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tried to enlarge your pic to see the end result but just got fuzzy
did the explosion peel the base open or dish the concave base out?
on graham's site there is vid of a "unvented" cylinder going critical if you wish to scare your self this will do it
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plumber
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 09:14 PM |
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talking about methanol explosions did any one see the program about Maria C'leste
on the box a couple of weeks ago she was transporting methanol.
theory is methanol exploded forced them to abandon ship but no fire followed, the lifeboat was tied the ship but the rope snaped casting them drift
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vijay
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 09:36 PM |
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so what size immersion element did you have?
Vijay
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julesandtash
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 09:50 PM |
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I didn't think it exploded, I thought it was leaking and the fumes caused them to abandon ship to the lifeboat, then the rope snapped etc.
Could be wrong though
1994 Discovery 300Tdi and1999 Skoda Octavia 1.9Tdi, Both on home made B100.
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julesandtash
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 09:56 PM |
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I just noticed something, is that long white / grey cable from the 4 way block on the wall above the processor the supply to the heater?
If so I would be tempted to try and run it straight from a wall socket as extra plugs and sockets on a load that high are not a good idea. Does the 4
way get warm at all?
Not a criticism just a suggestion, espectially as it sits right above the processor.
Jules
1994 Discovery 300Tdi and1999 Skoda Octavia 1.9Tdi, Both on home made B100.
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Loretta
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 10:06 PM |
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I don't know about the size of the immersion or indeed if it is still working, I will get round to it next w/end though if it is 27' I will replace
with 11'.
I've attached the same photo enlarged, hopefully a bit clearer this time.
Re jamerels inline heater, how do you fit one of those to a sealed hotwater tank, I cannot work it out from the link?
Point taken re overloading extension, I havent checked to see if it gets warm, will change it round when I next start processor.
Cheers for tips
Rich
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mark
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 10:20 PM |
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I hate to think what would have happened if it was an HDPE plastic reactor, your underpants would have been the last of your worries.
This should be a lesson for all those that use plastic reactors.
jamesrl's inline heaters are just that, inline, you put them between the pump and venturi.
[Edited on 20-7-2008 by mark]
Cit Xantia 1.9td VSX Athena estate (Bosch)
wife's pug 406 2.1 TD GLX estate with Bosch convertion
GL eco with eductor, squirrel, quad core condenser + HE, 180ltr batches
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mark
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| posted on 20-7-2008 at 10:28 PM |
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Is that plastic pipe that finishes by your plugs the vent, if it is I think you may wist to move it as you have already seen what happens when meth
fumes ignite.
Cit Xantia 1.9td VSX Athena estate (Bosch)
wife's pug 406 2.1 TD GLX estate with Bosch convertion
GL eco with eductor, squirrel, quad core condenser + HE, 180ltr batches
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tz0c0s
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| posted on 21-7-2008 at 11:27 AM |
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Good to see you are still able to talk to us.
A wakeup call for us all I think. A bit of an elaborate way to get another 5L of oil in your reactor.
That does look like a vent, next to the 4 way power bar ?? I would have that outside.
Please, if you identify a cause of ignition other than the one listed, let us know.
HDPE, that would be interesting, Chug, you have sufficient space to do some testing, fancy a blast ?
Andy.
[Edited on 21-7-2008 by tz0c0s]
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byways
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| posted on 21-7-2008 at 02:31 PM |
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Why was the blanket on the top of the tank? Some premonition? Good job the tank was not stronger, it could have built up even more pressure. Good to
see what can happen, makes us all take maximum care at all stages. Or should.
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saabangerman
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| posted on 21-7-2008 at 02:50 PM |
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Perhaps the vent line should be larger diameter so it can release pressure quicker?
VW Passat Mk4 AFN1.9tdi P reg 1997 276,000 miles - still on original clutch!!
Thrust bearing wowing though!
Running 100%Bio
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Enery8
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| posted on 22-7-2008 at 05:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Re
jamerels inline heater, how do you fit one of those to a sealed hotwater tank, I cannot work it out from the link?
Point taken re overloading extension, I havent checked to see if it gets warm, will change it round when I next start processor.
Cheers for tips
Rich |
jamesrl's inline heater fits between the pump and the venturi (see below) on my system it is above valvs V6.
Hope this helps,
Bill
Land Rover Discovery 300TDi 3000+ miles on 100% bio - < Bill >
we dont stop playing because we grow old..........we grow old because we stop playing.
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tttonyyy
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| posted on 4-12-2008 at 06:27 PM |
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Was the immersion heater ever pulled on this to determine the length?
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paddygoat
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| posted on 4-12-2008 at 06:37 PM |
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Simple rule here: Never put an immersion heater in a reactor.
Forum owner. R reg merc sprinter van, indirect injection, bosch inline IP, mechanical lift pump, 2 tanks, 2 switch over valves, pre-filter in veg oil
line, 10% petrol in Winter. Plate heat exchanger. Runs perfect. 50,000 miles so far. In vehicle wood powered interior heating system. Solar/veg oil
powered computer.
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/index.html |
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GSMGuy
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| posted on 4-12-2008 at 07:13 PM |
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I remember reading this thread.... Just looking at those pics, it actually looks like the cyl DOES NOT have a seerate vent as such.....
Mike
Making my annual 2499L of Bio....
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tttonyyy
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| posted on 4-12-2008 at 09:30 PM |
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I don't think there is any harm in the element being in the reactor so long as it's one of the short folded designs and you ensure that the fluid
level is way above it before each stage of the reaction that involves heating (by opening the valve on the sight gauge with the pump off before
proceeding).
Certainly the OP doesn't seem to know how long the element is, which has to be one of the very first things to check if you're using a HW cylinder
(otherwise you have no idea what the minimum fill level is).
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e3msb
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| posted on 4-12-2008 at 10:26 PM |
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I use only clip top drums, but dont clip them while processing. A good weight of about 10 kgs will seal the top for fumes, but if anything nasty
should happen, then the top just blows off. I saw a clip top a while back that had been clipped, and done the business and it was a sight I wont
forget, and it blew apart the shed round it....guy had just a few injuries luckily.
e3msb[steve] 96 disco 300. bio 100. Cit ZX. wvo/mix. PUG405 wvo/mix. Vintage JCB3c GT. bio. home/cent heating,wvo/glyc-oil. Linde forklift 3cyl
Deutz WVO. Petter twin diesel 7kva generator, bio and wvo. Dennis fire engine 1971. 5.8 perkins T6354 historic vehicle, bio. IF YOU HAVE GAINED
KNOWLEDGE OR BEEN AMUSED BY THE ANSWERS GIVEN PLEASE MAKE A SMALL DONATION TO THE FORUM
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GSMGuy
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| posted on 5-12-2008 at 01:02 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by e3msb
I use only clip top drums, but dont clip them while processing. A good weight of about 10 kgs will seal the top for fumes, but if anything nasty
should happen, then the top just blows off. I saw a clip top a while back that had been clipped, and done the business and it was a sight I wont
forget, and it blew apart the shed round it....guy had just a few injuries luckily. |
Good Idea that one Steve - May now go for a clip top on my supersized processor replacement! 
Mike
Making my annual 2499L of Bio....
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markconnor33
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| posted on 3-1-2009 at 10:04 PM |
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Steve
I was thinking of using the clip on my processor to secure the lid.
I won't bother, having just read your post. - Thanks
Will just stick a weight ontop instead.
Mark
Bio - amateur
1998 Saxo 1.5D B100 Lucas pump (3rd cheap runabout all same!- cheaper than the chip oil!)
2005 Volvo XC90 D5 on B100
Coleman 339 parafin lamp on B100
Current process
2 stage KOH reaction/5% pre-wash/demeth/settle (min 24hrs)/Filter to 0.5micron
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JIM.M
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| posted on 3-1-2009 at 11:17 PM |
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where is the vent, I cant see one nor where a vent would go, it should be in the very top of the tank, it hasn't blown out or you would see where it
had come from
this picture was put up as an example of what can happen when we were discussing the explosion just before Xmas and I asked the same question then
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