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Chug
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![[*]](./images/onepoint9/default_icon.gif) posted on 21-3-2009 at 10:03 AM |
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Come on Jim how did your one hit demething pan out?
Oh no Graham not the dreaded white stuff.
not as I'm just about to go and load up the processor for a 135 litre batch and then demeth that in one hit!
Personally, I don't believe it is necessary to achieve a really high conversion for my motors. I therefore accept a lower conversion fuel anyway,
which others might not, so it won't get wasted even if it does have partial reversing, and it's never around long enough to develop any
growth....LOL
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GrahamLaming
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 12:08 PM |
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Hi Chug,
I agree about the conversion, my car is happy on a vegoil and biodiesel anyway.
But the black stuff can still grow in the tank, even though you are replenishing with new fuel all the time - the fuel is the food, after all.
I have to clean a black furry slimey growth from around my filler cap every couple of months, so I bet there's stuff having a party in my tank too,
and I try to keep the back reaction to a minimum using low pressure, low temperature meth recovery, with neutralised catalyst.
Just saying, keep an eye on the furry beasties if you've got much MG or DG in there! Leave some in an open top jar for a while in the shed, and watch
the result.
What you also wouldn't want to do is to make a back reaction and then try and water wash the resulting biodiesel, because you'll end up losing a large
proportion of it to the water when it inevitably emulsifies.
Cheers
Graham
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jamesrl
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 02:56 PM |
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Chug, Demething results.
It took 5hr 30min for the methanol to stop running, as I said in another post the still head was set to 60c, it could possibley be set lower. After
the 5hr 30mins the bio was at 78c and the return was 36.36% of the methanol used remembering I used 22%
I'm now waiting for the reclaimed methanol to reach 16c, to get a true reading on my hydrometer, at the moment it's 13.9 and according to Grahames
chart and a bit of interpolation it's over 98% pure, as the temperature rises the density will drop and I'm expecting somewhere in the region 99%+.
The yeild was exactly 96%.
I have taken note of Grahams warning about bactirial growth, it's something we have to watch out for in boats so I have some Allclear ready for it.
It's all good news so far.
As a side note the glycerol was much darker and thicker than normal.
[Edited on 21-3-2009 by jamesrl]
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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Chug
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 03:39 PM |
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Cheers Jim
How big was the batch?
I've got 135L turning over at the moment, did the modified 2 stage again and I'm just waiting on a bio sample to settle for 20 mins whilst I have a
sandwich and check my emails then if the 3/27 is ok I'm straight onto demething the lot.
I cleaned out the bottom of my settling tank today and there was very little soap, and a little bit of solid glyc.
I know they were only 30L test batches but 2 of them went in the settling tank which equals nearly half my usaul batch size and there was less than
half the usual amount of soap so I'm assuming some went into the glyc.
Cheers Graham
I'll keep a sample and keep an eye on it as is my usual practice anyway, and I haven't washed any biodiesel for ages, it seems backwards and like a
world away now I'm demething and settling.
[Edited on 21-3-2009 by Chug]
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
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jamesrl
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 04:48 PM |
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The results of the modified 2 stage and total demeth
The batch size was 50ltr, the size of my reactor.
A final 3/27 after the demeth produced 3 pinhead size blobs of wvo so there was a small revese action, I've made and used worse before so I'm not
worried about that.
I shall be doing a distilled water test as Graham suggested to check for mono and diglycerides.
The Reclaimed methanol, a return of 4ltr from a total of 11ltr ended up at 97%+ pure well happy with that.
Conclusion:- From start to finish took the best part of 9hrs continuous running. The result is better than I expected but the lenght of time it takes
out weighs any benifit in my opinion.
I think it would be better to carry on with Grahams original method and distill the gycerol seperately.
I usually produce a batch in a couple of hours and let the bubbler do the rest once it's in the settling tank.
I'm glad I tried it even if to satisfy my self.
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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Chug
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 06:25 PM |
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9hrs does seem a bit long, you can produce a batch in 2 hrs but what about adding on the time to demeth the bio and then demeth the glyc?
I did 3 hrs reaction time but I was fixing punctures on Mahli's bike so I could probably have reduced that and so far 1.5 hrs demething I have 7.5L of
recovered methanol in the drum, I started with 32 litres methanol consisting of 20L fresh and 12L recovered.
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
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stumpy
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 07:34 PM |
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I agree with James 9hrs is a long time, but how long does it usually take to demeth a standard batch ?
I think the extra time is because you`ve so much more Methanol to extract than normal.
James how long does it take to demeth just a batch of Glyc ?
GL Type Processor.
Whole Batch De-Mething.
Hardwood Chippings to Polish Bio.
Built my own Centrifuge.
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jamesrl
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| posted on 21-3-2009 at 09:05 PM |
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I've not completed my Glycerol still yet, I never seem to have the time.
My plant is controled by a PID and timing system, so though it was 9hrs start to finish hands on was only 30mins or so.
The 5 1/2 hr demeth was done whilst I had dinner showered and went down the pub, came back ate the obligitory Chinese, watch the midnight news on sky
then checked out the plant.
I do have a stock of bio so I'm not in such a hurry for it.
I'm in the process of modifying my reactor to employ the new hi-power Eductor, should be ready early next week.
Keep an eye open for the new thread.
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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Chug
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 03:56 PM |
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stumpy
It takes me between 2,1/2 - 3 hours to demeth a batch of glyc and about the same to demeth a batch of bio, But saying that when I do the glyc it's two
batches of bio's worth.
Jim
yes darker glyc, my theory is it has more soap in now too, see below.
I demethed this whole batch for 2 and 3/4 hours and then stopped after I worked out that the stoichiometric quantity being around 12.5% (which comes
out around 18.5 litres) should leave 13.5 litres excess which should be recoverable, once I had recovered 13.5 litres I stopped.
Last time I kept on going until the methanol stopped coming but it was probably starting to reverse (Jim also kept going until the meth stopped coming
and then had slight fallout)
A shake em up test with water on the first batches is now showing a tiny trace of dreaded white stuff (DWS) on the interface between bio and water. so
I think I had recovered more than the excess over the stoichiometric quantity in the first two batches.
But this batch shows no DWS on the water/bio interface.
I'm also gonna borrow a camera and take a video of the glyc settling out as it's amazing, you can actually see it happening before your eyes. I've
never seen glyc drop that fast before and it's something to behold, and I thought I had virtually no soap last time but this time it's confirmed,
almost zero soap, so it must be settling out superfast in the glyc too.
All in all I'm pleased with this experiment and it may be me but the resulting bio seems to be less viscous than my usual. I'm definitely going to try
this again.
And I think along with trying the modified 2 stage with extra NaOH I may try a single stage and just add more NaOH to start with too, hopefully to get
the reaction time back down to a couple of hours, and with no glyc settling/draining/suckin back in and no prewash just a couple of hours reaction and
3 hours demething so it should be quicker than a standard 2 stage with these extra factors.
[Edited on 22-3-2009 by Chug]
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
will lead to extremism. It is harmful to the collective good and won't really make you happy. The democratically elected world leaders have your
best interests at heart and will do everything within their power to make sure everyone is equal and safe from terrorism and infectious diseases and
recession. Please help by consuming as much as you can and following all orders without question!
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jamesrl
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 04:12 PM |
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Chug, when you mention the stoichiometric quantity being 12.5%, are you refering to the batch size, the amount of wvo, or the methanol quantity used,
say 22% of WVO?
[Edited on 22-3-2009 by jamesrl]
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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NigelB
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 04:58 PM |
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I'm still water washing my bio. I don't have access, currently, to any dry wash media (eco2pure) and would like to know exactly how you go about the
settling method following the de-meth of the bio via the condensor.
Sorry if this seems a dumb-ass question but I'm always on the look out for improved methods. This is why if anybody has been following my recent posts
re condensor efficiencies and improved venturies they will realise where I'm going.
Nige.
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jamesrl
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 05:38 PM |
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Nige, you don't need Eco2pure.
Demeth as normal, when its done transfere to a settling tank and bubble immediately for a couple of hours then let it settle for 12 - 24hrs.
Do a 50/50 water test on the top 25ltr, if clear of soaps use it.
If you want to filter it, a filter sock made from denim does a fantastic job.
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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jamesrl
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 05:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by NigelB
This is why if anybody has been following my recent posts re condensor efficiencies and improved venturies they will realise where I'm going.
Nige. |
How are we supposed to know where you're going, you're all over the place like a drunken sailor, I had a hell of a job following you the other night.
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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NigelB
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 05:54 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jamesrl
| Quote: | Originally posted by NigelB
This is why if anybody has been following my recent posts re condensor efficiencies and improved venturies they will realise where I'm going.
Nige. |
How are we supposed to know where you're going, you're all over the place like a drunken sailor, I had a hell of a job following you the other night.
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Sorry mate...still doing it now aren't I.....
Nige
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Chug
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:04 PM |
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As in the methanol is 22% of the batch size, so at 12.5% it only needs just over half the methanol we put in for the reaction, the excess is just to
help push the reaction.
Mine only really needs 30 litres but when I was adding the recovered there was about 2 litres left in the bottom so I just carried on pouring figuring
the extra would compensate for any loss in purity.
And Nige, I agree with Jim if you get demeth, bubble, settle right it doesn't need any more than a quick run through an old sheet, jeans, t-shirt.
This last whole batch demeth I've just done I drew a sample and it settled out the glyc, and whatever soap there might have been, in about 5 minutes
flat. It was so awesome and I went on so much about it to the family that I got Mahli asking if she could see it, so we strirred it all up and watched
it settle again, I checked after leaving it overnight and the level of the glyc hasn't dropped any lower than it had after just 5 mins, but bio was
now completely clear on top and the glyc is solid.
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
will lead to extremism. It is harmful to the collective good and won't really make you happy. The democratically elected world leaders have your
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recession. Please help by consuming as much as you can and following all orders without question!
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jamesrl
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:10 PM |
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I have a sample of my last whole batch demeth bio still with the Glyc in it, I'll do a 50/50 with distilled water as Graham suggested and see if there
are the dreaded mono and di's in it.
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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Chug
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:16 PM |
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Jim
have you seen the glyc settling fast? if not stir up some of what you have and watch it, though it might need warming if it's solid like mine.
How did you fair with soap?
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[Edited on 18-7-2009 by Chug]
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
will lead to extremism. It is harmful to the collective good and won't really make you happy. The democratically elected world leaders have your
best interests at heart and will do everything within their power to make sure everyone is equal and safe from terrorism and infectious diseases and
recession. Please help by consuming as much as you can and following all orders without question!
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NigelB
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Chug
And Nige, I agree with Jim if you get demeth, bubble, settle right it doesn't need any more than a quick run through an old sheet, jeans, t-shirt.
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Do you need to maintain the temperature of the bubbling bio at any level or do you allow it to bubble from de-meth temperature to ambient?
Nige.
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Chug
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:25 PM |
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I pump from processor at approx 80°C and bubble overnight (as my pump is only 3.5L/min, not 70L/min like Jim and others so they can do it in much less
time, usually a few hours) and it's still luke warm in the morning even in the depth of winter, but it is 135 litres to cool
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
will lead to extremism. It is harmful to the collective good and won't really make you happy. The democratically elected world leaders have your
best interests at heart and will do everything within their power to make sure everyone is equal and safe from terrorism and infectious diseases and
recession. Please help by consuming as much as you can and following all orders without question!
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NigelB
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Chug
I pump from processor at approx 80°C and bubble overnight (as my pump is only 3.5L/min, not 70L/min like Jim and others so they can do it in much less
time, usually a few hours) and it's still luke warm in the morning even in the depth of winter, but it is 135 litres to cool |
I suppose if I insulated my wash tank and turned it into a settling tank with outlet valves down one side so as to "skim off" the settled fuel then I
could do a modification with little trouble or effort.
Nige
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Chug
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:42 PM |
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I did wrap a blanket round it in the 1st week of Feb cold snap.
I have one drain at the bottom and one other tap about 4 inches from the bottom, I originally intended fit another tap about half way up, but the way
the soap settles within a day you don't really need it unless you are in a hurry.
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
will lead to extremism. It is harmful to the collective good and won't really make you happy. The democratically elected world leaders have your
best interests at heart and will do everything within their power to make sure everyone is equal and safe from terrorism and infectious diseases and
recession. Please help by consuming as much as you can and following all orders without question!
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NigelB
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 06:47 PM |
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So no additional heat required?
Nige
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Chug
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 07:18 PM |
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sorry Nige
didn't really answer your question,
no additional heat just from de-meth temperature to ambient, it does work cold too it just seems to take a little longer.
DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!
1992 709D Mercedes
1983 Dodge 50
1996 Transit tipper
1994 Citroen ZX 1.9 TD, Engine now in 1996 Peugeot 306
http://www.biofuel-uk.net/
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
GOVERNMENT WARNING!:
If you are having individual free thoughts please switch on your TV immediately and watch x factor, or go shopping, or buy a happy meal, free thought
will lead to extremism. It is harmful to the collective good and won't really make you happy. The democratically elected world leaders have your
best interests at heart and will do everything within their power to make sure everyone is equal and safe from terrorism and infectious diseases and
recession. Please help by consuming as much as you can and following all orders without question!
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NigelB
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 07:22 PM |
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Cheers Buddy.
I can see a few plant modifications coming on.
Nige
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jamesrl
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| posted on 22-3-2009 at 07:32 PM |
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No Nige, it's not Buddy, it's Chug and I'm Jim.
Citroen 2.0HDI Piccasos, Peugot 307 2.0HDI, 50hp Isuzu marine engine and a UXD 9 Turbo all running on 100% Bio.
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